I would like to draw the Minister's attention also to the whole question of the position of the friendly society movement and the insurance side of this question .sx Hon .sx Gentlemen opposite seem to think it is monstrous for us on this side to call these grants insurance in the old sense .sx Surely it was the working classes of this country who made the friendly society movement .sx They were the first people who set up these societies of mutual benefit , and they have for that earned credit from the whole world .sx It seems to me amazing that their representatives in the House of Commons today do not seem able to recognise or are willing to recognise that asking for money for insurance for a scheme that is not actuarially an insurance scheme is sailing under false colours .sx Not one of my hon .sx Friends has suggested that we want to throw people off and do nothing for them .sx All that we suggest is that if you have an unemployment insurance scheme , it should be kept as an insurance scheme , and that other forms of assistance should be kept separate from it .sx If you talk to any old-fashioned trade unionist who is keen about the benefit side of his union , he will tell you that all this slackness about insurance is doing no good to the benefit side of the union .sx Far too often Members of this House look upon trade unions merely as organisations for negotiating wages , and forget that one part they play in the national life is the benefit side , which they have administered very well as a whole .sx I hope that there will be no further misconception as to what we claim on this side .sx It is not a question that we want to fling people out .sx We wish to draw that distinction between people who are really insured persons and those who are not .sx I think that far too frequently people say that a man is on the dole when he is nothing of the sort , but is getting a benefit to which he is justly entitled .sx Why hon .sx Gentlemen opposite who realise that do not wish to draw a greater distinction between this fund , so as to prevent it being used as a term of abuse when it is not so , beats me .sx You will never understand or get to the root of this matter until , once and for all , you cut off the insurance scheme from other things , but always keep the bridge open so that a man can step back again into insurance benefit .sx I hope that the right hon .sx Lady has been able to get certain extra figures in regard to transitional benefit , about which I addressed a question to her .sx From her answer , it appears that 380,000 a week is now being paid for transitional benefit as against 160,000 prior to the passing of the Insurance Act this year .sx I hope the Ministry of Labour has been able to analyse these figures and find out what is the position of transitional benefit , and whether there is any possibility at all of that being fitted into the scheme in a more satisfactory manner .sx Some of us feel that the Act of this year has not been to the benefit of the scheme as a whole .sx I agree with hon .sx Gentlemen on this side who feel it is really a matter about which all of us must be distressed , because no party , and certainly Government , has made a very good job of this question .sx It does seem to me a thousand pities , when one thinks of the distress up and down the country at this moment and realises the conditions under which a section of the people will be celebrating what they are pleased to call a happy period .sx I cannot help thinking that if parties were more honest about facts , and did not play with false sentiment and party discords , the country would appreciate the work we are doing more than it does to-day .sx Mr. McGOVERN :sx The Bill we are discussing is to raise the borrowing power from 60,000,000 to 70,000,000 , and the Tory Amendment is that until the Government declare their policy in relation to the abuses admittedly in existence , this money should not be voted .sx On that plea of admitted abuses we have listened for two days to speeches that have been veiled attacks from both the Liberal and Tory benches against a section of the working class of this country who are being castigated for drawing money they are not entitled to draw .sx In my duties as a parish councillor , town councillor and Member of Parliament , I have from time to time come into close relationship with large bodies of people who are drawing unemployment benefit , and I have also come across a large number who are denied that benefit .sx I think the abuses that really exist are abuses against the workers and not of the workers .sx The Tory party would be well advised , if they want to add to the numerical strength of this party , to go into their divisions and make the type of speech they have been making in this house to-day .sx It is very ill for any people who are being returned here , largely by working class votes , to make the veiled attacks they have been making on the working classes .sx It is admitted that in the beginning this was intended to be an insurance scheme that would be entirely solvent , and meet the entire needs of the country .sx If we have drifted away from that , it is not the fault of the working class ; it is the fault of the order of society known as capitalism .sx If we are unable to make things meet in this insurance scheme , it is because of the inability of hon .sx and right hon .sx Gentlemen opposite and their friends to carry on industry and make a success of the system they are continually boasting about .sx If there are abuses and I deny that there are any they are the result of the present order , that has created the necessity so that men may get a living .sx There is admittedly no prospect of the repayment of the money that is proposed to be borrowed .sx Hon .sx Members are , of course , entitled to criticise the fund because of the continual borrowing which is resorted to in order to postpone the evil day , when there will have to be a complete change in the provision of the money .sx What are the suggestions made in order to meet the deficit ?sx There are a number of alternative methods instead of borrowing .sx In the first place , there could be increased contributions by employers and workers .sx If the Tory party desire to suggest that course , let them do so honestly and openly .sx Let them say that that is one way to create a solvent fund .sx Another method would be by decreasing the benefits .sx I would like to see any Member of the Liberal party or the Tory party who represents a working-class constituency who would dare to suggest a decrease in the benefits which those members of the working class who are unemployed are getting .sx We have fixed the benefit at the lowest possible minimum that any human being can exist on .sx Therefore , there can be no relief of the fund by way of the reduction of benefit .sx A third suggestion is that benefits might be paid for a short period and that the workers should then be transferred to a national fund .sx If there is a weakness in that suggestion , why should not hon .sx Members ask the Government what they intend to do in order to find the money by other methods ?sx If they want to suggest that the worker should receive benefit from the fund for only three months or six months and should then be put on to a national relief fund , let them suggest it honestly and openly .sx There is a fourth suggestion , and that is that the benefits should be paid for a short period and that the unemployed worker should then be put on to the local rates .sx Is there anyone who would dare to suggest openly that a working man who draws unemployment benefit out of the Insurance Fund for three months or six months should then be transferred to the Public Assistance Committees or to Poor Law relief ?sx There are very few , if any , hon .sx Members who would dare to make that suggestion to their constituents or to the people of this country .sx There is a fifth method that might be suggested , and that is to bring in a scheme for all the people who work either for wages or salary .sx That would mean that every person , no matter what their income might be , whether they were directors or street sweepers , would be brought into a great comprehensive scheme of insurance .sx The strong would bear the burden of the weak .sx That suggestion might be made and discussed in this House and there might be agreement on those lines .sx A sixth method would be to end the contributory scheme and to set up a complete national fund for carrying the whole unemployment of the country .sx That would be the scheme which I should favour , because I believe that the present insurance scheme has completely broken down , and I cannot see any relief to be derived from any of the other suggestions .sx It is a national and not a local fund that is required .sx The localities are bearing as much as they possibly can .sx They are overburdened and cannot bear any more financial undertakings .sx Hence the creation of a .sx national fund , subsidised if you like from the Income Tax payers of this country , would be a solution of the difficulty .sx In relation to the unemployed , I feel seriously perturbed .sx The Minister of Labour said the other day that in the building trade , with which I am associated , there were 143,000 men , who have been trained in the building of houses , who were signing on at the Employment Exchanges , and that these 143,000 individuals , taking the normal amount of pay at 32s .sx , coming from the 10,000,000 , means an expenditure of 228,000 per week in order to keep these human beings in idleness .sx Knowing the men in the trade and knowing that they have spent years in skilled craftsmanship I know that they are desirous of having an opportunity to do work in the carrying out of housing schemes .sx Instead of work being available for them in that direction , nearly 250,000 has to be paid out each week from the fund to keep those men whilst they are unemployed .sx If we were to create a great national fund for the provision of housing for the people , we should be able to relieve the Insurance Fund of the charge of nearly 250,000 per week which it has to pay now to the unemployed men in the building trade .sx By that method one could take a large army of workers from the fund .sx In regard to the building trade workers who are on the fund it cannot be said that they are the victims of foreign competition .sx There is necessity for houses , there is an urgent need for houses , and work could be found for them if the Government were fully alive to the necessities of the situation .sx Some hon .sx Members , including the right hon .sx and learned Member for Spen Valley ( Sir J. Simon ) have expressed strong views on this question .sx The right hon .sx and learned Member for Spen Valley suggested last week , in lawyer-like fashion , although he was certainly guarded in his statement , that there was growing up in the community a class of people who took a different view of the drawing of money from public funds than people had previously taken .sx He was suggesting that we were developing a cute type of being , a class of people who are determined to get something for nothing out of society .sx It ill becomes the right hon .sx and learned Member to make suggestions of that character , because he and the profession to which he belongs have lived all their lives by developing that cute instinct and making the working class wise as to cute tricks in society , and how they can prey on society .sx