Lord DANESFORT :sx My Lords , I think there has been some misconception in regard to this matter , as has been pointed out by my noble friend Lord Bertie , because there may be an appeal by a private person aggrieved under this clause .sx What is the provision in the clause ?sx It says , in subsection ( 1 ) :sx - " The areas specified in Part I of the First Schedule to this act shall be catchment areas .sx .. " Then it gives a right to the Minister upon the application of local authorities to alter those areas .sx That is what we find in subsection ( 2 ) , where it says :sx - " the Minister may at any time , either on the application of the councils of the counties and county boroughs concerned or , if he thinks fit , without any such application " - .sx I believe the noble Earl wanted to leave out those words but it does not affect the question - .sx " by Order under this Part of this act direct that any areas which are not for the time being included in the said First Schedule shall be added to the said Schedule .sx .. " In other words , the power given to the Minister under the clause is that if a local authority asks him he can alter the areas .sx It may very well be that a private person may be seriously aggrieved by that alteration of the area .sx Therefore , in that case I most earnestly ask your Lordships to give a right of appeal to the appeal tribunal .sx The noble Earl quite fairly admits that the cost to a private person of going by way of Provisional Order would be absolutely prohibitive in many cases ; but what I want , if your Lordships would agree , is to say in substance that the alteration of this catchment area may very well affect private individuals , and that if they are affected or aggrieved they may go by way of appeal to the appeal tribunal .sx That is the real question here .sx There is this further point .sx Supposing that only a county council or a local authority is aggrieved , why should they put the tax-payers to this enormously increased cost of proceeding by way of Provisional Order when they could get probably a better , but let us say an equally good , decision , certainly far more cheaply by going to the appeal tribunal ?sx Mention has been made of compromise .sx Surely this is a matter which has been practically decided on the Committee stage .sx I beg your Lordships not to go back upon the Committee stage more especially regarding this particular clause , where your Lordships accepted my Amendment which distinctly gave a right of appeal to an aggrieved person where the catchment area was altered .sx If I can get anybody to support me , I shall certainly divide upon this Amendment .sx On Question , amendment negatived .sx Amendment moved - .sx Page 2 , line 32 , at end insert as a new subsection :sx " ( 3 ) An Order under this section , if opposed , shall be provisional only and shall not have effect until confirmed by Parliament .sx " - ( Earl De La Warr .sx ) On Question , Amendment agreed to .sx Schemes for reorganisation of internal drainage authorities in catchment areas .sx ( 4) .sx - ( 1 ) Every catchment board - .sx ( b ) shall within a further period expiring on such later date as may be appointed by the Minister for the purposes of this provision , either generally or in relation to a particular catchment board , prepare and submit to him for confirmation a further scheme or further schemes making provision for the following matters :sx - ( 2 ) As soon as any such scheme has been submitted to the Minister , the catchment board shall send copies thereof to the council of every county and county borough and every drainage board affected thereby , and shall publish in one or ore newspapers circulating in the area affected by the scheme a notice stating that the scheme has been submitted to the Minister , and that a copy thereof is open to inspection at a specified place and that representations with respect to the scheme may be made to the Minister at any time within one month after the publication of the notice .sx ( 3 ) The Minister shall , after considering any representations made to him and making such enquiries as he considers necessary , take into consideration any scheme submitted to him under this section for confirmation , and such a scheme shall not be of any effect unless and until it is confirmed by an Order of the Minister under this Part of this Act , subject , however , to the right of appeal given by this Act .sx ( 4 ) Any scheme under this section may from time to time be amended by a subsequent scheme submitted by the catchment board and confirmed in the manner afore-said , subject , however , to the right of appeal given by this Act .sx ( 5 ) Where the Minister refuses to approve any such scheme or makes an Order approving any such scheme , he shall give public notice of the refusal or of the order , as the case may be , in such manner as he things fit .sx ( 6 ) If the catchment board or any drainage board or any other persons are aggrieved by the refusal of the Minister to approve xx scheme under subsection ( 1 ) of this section or by the approval of any such scheme , they may , at any time within three months after the date on which in pursuance of this section notice was given of the refusal or the making of the order approving the scheme , appeal against the refusal or order to the Appeal Tribunal , hereinafter by this Act established .sx EARL DE LA WARR moved after paragraph ( b ) ( iii ) of subsection ( I ) to insert :sx " ( iv ) the abolition of reconstitution of any internal drainage district and of the drainage board thereof .sx " The noble Earl said :sx My Lords , This really is largely a drafting Amendment , but I think I had perhaps better explain it .sx It should be read in connection with clause 16 .sx One clause refers to areas within catchment areas , and Clause 16 to areas outside catchment areas .sx It considers powers on catchment boards in regard to the areas within their jurisdiction .sx Clause 16 of the Bill confers upon catchment boards for the purposes of land drainage exclusive powers and jurisdiction with regard to the main rivers , and your Lordships will see in Clause 4 that paragraphs ( a ) and ( i ) of that Clause provide for the catchment board as soon as may be after it has been constituted submitting a scheme for the transfer to the catchment board of all rights and duties and obligations over the main river .sx There are certain cases where at the present moment a drainage board of an internal district is charged with the obligation of maintaining part of the main river , and when a scheme is put forward under this clause there will be practically nothing left for that board to do , because its responsibility for the banks of the main river will have been taken from it .sx This being so it is essential the catchment board should be in a position to wind up the affairs of that particular drainage board , and this Amendment will enable it to do so .sx I beg to move .sx Amendment moved - .sx Page 5 , line 4 , at end insert the said paragraph .sx - ( Earl De La Warr .sx ) On Question , Amendment agreed to .sx EARL DE LA WARR moved , after paragraph ( b ) ( vi ) , to insert :sx - " ( viii ) for altering or supplementing in any respect of the provisions of any local Act or of any award made under any such Act where such alterations or supplemental provisions are necessary or expedient for enabling the area for the benefit of which drainage works are authorised by the local Act or award to be drained effectually .sx " The noble earl said :sx My Lords , this again should be taken in conjunction with Clause 16 .sx This clause is a re-enactment of the Land Drainage Act of 1918 and this is virtually a drafting Amendment :sx Amendment moved - .sx Page 5 , line 19 , at end insert the said paragraph .sx - ( Earl De La Warr .sx ) On Question Amendment agreed to .sx EARL DE LA WARR moved to leave out subsections ( 2 ) and ( 6 ) and insert :sx " ( 2 ) The Minister may by Order under this Part of this Act confirm any scheme so submitted , either with or without modifications :sx Provided that an order confirming a scheme under paragraph ( b ) of the preceding subsection , if opposed , shall be provisional only and shall not have effect until confirmed by Parliament .sx ( 3 ) A scheme under the said paragraph ( b ) may provide for the revocation or amendment of , and for the retransfer of property , rights , powers , duties , obligations and liabilities transferred by , any previous scheme under this section .sx " The noble Earl said :sx My Lords , we are back here on the same point as that which we have already discussed .sx This is really consequential on Clause 2 .sx I do not know if the noble Lord , Lord Danesfort , wants to discuss any particular matter with regard to this clause , or whether he will accept the decision on the point already given .sx LORD DANESFORT :sx I certainly do not agree to this .sx EARL DE LA WARR :sx Very well , for the same reason that I advanced in connection with Clause 2 , on consideration of this Bill as it was amended in your Lordships' House we find it difficult to agree that Orders under this clause made by the Minister shall be the subject of the appeal to the appeal tribunal .sx We think that this point should come back directly to Parliament for decision .sx If your Lordships will read Clause 4 you will see that in paragraph ( a ) of sub-section ( 1 ) it is purely a matter of carrying out the decision of Parliament as given in this Bill and therefore there is no reason for any appeal at all .sx The Bill lays it down that schemes shall be evolved , and this clause provides for these schemes with regard to Orders confirming schemes under subsection ( 1 ) ( b) .sx These Orders are concerned with important decisions on policy .sx This is the same point as we discussed on Clause 2 .sx They will have to be made by the Minister and therefore the Minister is responsible to Parliament on these matters of policy .sx We think that the appeal against the Minister should be to Parliament through its Provisional Order organisation .sx I therefore hope your Lordships will accept this Amendment .sx Amendment moved - .sx Page 5 , line 29 , leave out subsections ( 2 ) to ( 6 ) and insert the said new subsection .sx - ( Earl De La Warr .sx ) LORD DYNEVOR had given Notice to move to amend the said Amendment by leaving out " ( 2 ) to ( 6 ) " and inserting " ( 3 ) to ( 6 ) " and , in the proposed new subsection , leaving out " confirming a scheme under paragraph ( b ) of the preceding subsection " and inserting " under this section .sx " The noble Lord said :sx My Lords , I know that moving an Amendment to an Amendment always creates a little difficulty in people's minds , but I will try to make as clear as I can what would be the effect .sx The noble Earl , Lord De La Warr , moved to leave out subsections ( 2 ) to ( 6) .sx Now this clause has reference to schemes for reorganisation of internal drainage authorities in catchment areas .sx I am suggesting that subsection ( 2 ) should be left in the Bill .sx I am allowing the noble Earl to take out subsections ( 3 ) to ( 6) .sx Subsection ( 2 ) is a provision which your Lordships put into the Bill at my suggestion , although the Government , I remember , were not quite happy about it .sx They rather suggested that it was already dealt with in the Bill .sx I pointed out that my Amendment - which is subsection ( 2 ) - was to compel catchment boards to publish in the local newspapers a notice that a scheme had been submitted to the Minister , so that it could be inspected at some specified place .sx I was very anxi0ous that there should be as much publicity as possible , otherwise a catchment board might submit a scheme to the Minister and nobody would know anything about it until he , under the Second Schedule of the Bill , had confirmed it .sx Then it would be open for aggrieved persons to come forward .sx