Mr. Illsley :sx I support new clause 1 and , in view of what I said in Committee , I hope to keep my remarks brief .sx It is not that some authorities are profligate and overspend ; it is simply that the Government have imposed on them standard spending assessments which are deliberately low to force them into a situation where they can easily be charge-capped under the Government's current criteria .sx In Committee , the Opposition showed clearly that the SSAs bore no relation to the needs of any particular authority .sx I was interested to hear the comments of the hon .sx Member for Torridge and Devon , West ( Miss Nicholson ) about a newspaper published by the National and Local Government Officers Association which I think she said was produced last September .sx Barnsley is still making cuts as a result of last year's charge capping of which the newspaper probably would not be aware .sx New clause 1 requires the Secretary of State to estimate losses that are likely to be carried forward for the forthcoming year .sx The formula as it stands in the Bill simply passes the result of any charge capping on to the poll tax payer in the following financial year , and no account is taken of the shortfall despite the fact that that information is available at the time of the charge capping .sx It is nonsense that the Government should force authorities to issue bills which the Government and the local authorities know are ridiculous because they do not take account of the information that is available to the authority at the time .sx The public do not want that shortfall being stored up for the following year .sx For example , in 1990-91 Barnsley allocated 6 per cent .sx of its poll tax bill to cover any shortfall in the collection of the tax , and that was detailed on the bill .sx There is considerable resentment among charge payers in my authority because they are expected to pay pounds16 .sx 97 to cover what they look upon as defaulters .sx Complaints to me and in the local press are now building up from people who refuse to pay that sum .sx They will pay the rest of the poll tax bill , but they are not prepared to pay for someone who defaults .sx They do not realise that similar problems existed under the rating system .sx This is causing problems for the local authority .sx It is not just ordinary working people who object , but the business community as well - perhaps more so .sx They tend to look on people who are unable to pay as shirkers , just as Conservative Members do , although that is not necessarily the case .sx One can imagine the disgust of charge payers in my local authority if they had to make up a shortfall of more than 6 per cent .sx That is simply increasing the number of refusals to pay the poll tax and placing an extra burden on the local authority .sx People are deciding to pay simply a proportion of the poll tax and to withhold the pounds16 .sx 97. Therefore , my local authority is having to send out extra bills , obtain court orders and all the rest simply because people are refusing to pay that 6 per cent .sx It shows that people do not want such sums stored up for the forthcoming year but would far rather have their bills sorted out logically in the current year when the capping is implemented .sx If the Secretary of State is required to lay such an estimate of losses , the local authority can identify what it will be required to make up in the following year .sx It is obviously sensible for a local authority which knows that it will be short on its collection funds to take that into account at the time of capping .sx It is crazy simply to tell local authorities that , although it is known that they have a 10 per cent .sx shortfall in their collection funds , nothing can be done about it in June , July , August or September , and it must wait till the following year .sx Again , that reflects on the SSAs , which appear not to have been altered to any great extent this year compared with last year .sx My authority still has the same problems and we shall have similar problems with capping .sx All we are doing is building up problems for the future .sx We are simply creating a situation in which authorities that were capped originally will be capped in the future .sx New clause 1 requires the Secretary of State to specify the proposed increase in the charge .sx I have some sympathy with that because charge payers coming to my surgeries do not want to hear about aggregate external finance or increases in revenue support grant which , incidentally , are about 1.9 per cent .sx Most of the pounds3 billion spoken about this year is coming through non-domestic rating , not through increases in Government grant .sx What they want to know is what the increase will be in pounds , not in percentages here , there and everywhere .sx New clause 1 also requires a schedule of reductions in services .sx Again , I have considerable sympathy with that .sx I have to laugh when I hear stories about whisky bottles in cupboards and all the rest .sx It is obvious that some Conservative Members are living in a dream world .sx My authority comes under the Audit Commission and is regulated by the same legislation as are all other authorities .sx My authority is a diligent one , which abides by the rules and regulations laid down .sx Authorities referred to by Conservative Members do not seem to come under the same legislation .sx Why are not complaints made about those profligate authorities ?sx Some of the stories related by Conservative Members are incredible .sx When an authority sets a sensible budget and when treasurers , heads of department and all the rest have spent considerable time determining their budget for the coming year , agonising over it for two or three months , how can they simply cut pounds10 million off it , as Barnsley was required to do ?sx Which services should be cut ?sx My area was not guilty of high spending and there was no waste , yet cuts had to made in every department - small cuts here , there and everywhere , except in education , where the cuts were massive .sx The hon .sx Member for Torridge and Devon , West , who is no longer in her place , referred to authorities that had not had to make employees redundant as a result of charge capping .sx I assure her that some education centres in Barnsley were closed as a direct result of charge capping .sx It is not good enough for the Government simply to tell a local authority that it is being capped and that , say , pounds10 million must be taken out of its budget .sx The Government should be obliged to indicate to the authority how the pounds10 million might be saved .sx But they do not do that .sx They know that some local authorities , such as the one in my area , simply cannot cut spending without reducing services .sx They know that authorities , in setting their budgets , have acted responsibly .sx It should be remembered that the Manchesters , the Bradfords , the Wandsworths and the Westminsters get double the amount of money that Barnsley gets to provide services at the same level .sx Why does Manchester get twice as much as the local authority in my area to provide the same services ?sx It is absolutely ridiculous .sx The Government are abdicating their responsibility .sx They do not know where the cuts could be made .sx They themselves could not do the job .sx The whole idea of charge capping is a sham , because it is based on the sham standard spending assessment .sx 5 pm .sx Ms .sx Dawn Primarolo ( Bristol , South) :sx I shall try to make my comments brief , as other hon .sx Members wish to take part in the debate .sx I shall confine myself to the new clause .sx The hon .sx Member for Torridge and Devon , West ( Miss Nicholson ) said that those who take decisions should be made accountable .sx That is exactly what new clause 1 seeks to do .sx It seeks to make the Government accountable for what they are forcing upon local authorities .sx If the hon .sx Lady and her colleagues are so keen on this mechanism , it is odd that they are resisting this new clause , which specifically addresses the fact that the Bill provides the Secretary of State with strengthened powers by giving him the right , in effect , to decide a local authority's poll tax as well as its budget .sx That is true of all local authorities that the Secretary of State chooses to charge-cap .sx This is an ironic twist , bearing in mind what the present Secretary of State for the Environment wrote to The Times in May 1990 :sx " Local authorities should be free to set and account for their own budgets .sx " .sx But the Government are seeking to take that right away from the local authorities .sx They know that the task that has been set is impossible , and they do not wish themselves , as the Government , to be held accountable for extremely difficult decisions .sx New clause 1 refers specifically to difficulties in respect of the collection fund .sx It would oblige the Secretary of State to specify the services that a local authority area was likely to lose .sx If he was unable or was not prepared to identify the cuts , he would be required to specify the deficit that would have to be carried forward and would result in an increase in poll tax in the following financial year .sx The Government are not prepared to give an estimate or to take into consideration the difficulties that local authorities have to face .sx In Bristol , whose council is one of the authorities that the hon .sx Lady quoted , the Government are requiring a cut of pounds21 million in the expenditure for next year .sx Bearing in mind the fact that the total expenditure figure is pounds62 million , anybody who believes that a reduction of pounds21 million will be achieved without loss of services and loss of jobs is clearly living in cloud cuckoo land .sx Let us look at the experience in Bristol this year .sx Let us consider the information that we should wish the Secretary of State to take into account when identifying cuts .sx The poll tax is proving to be almost impossible to collect .sx The Audit Commission , when studying collection and looking at the collection fund , investigated a number of authorities , of which Bristol city council was one .sx Thus we have up-to-date information on the problems of that local authority .sx In Bristol , administration of the poll tax costs pounds18 .sx 22 per head of the adult population .sx The Audit Commission estimated that the figure should be pounds14 .sx The difference is accounted for by the fact that the council had to find new offices for the increased number of staff needed to deal with the poll tax .sx That has been carried forward .sx In addition , the authority has to pay the collection charge and giro costs .sx The administration charge for the rates was pounds7 .sx 35 per head .sx In addition , as a result of charge capping , court appeals and the endless rebilling that has been necessary - .sx Mr. Holt :sx Would the hon .sx Lady care to say whether she has paid her own charge this year ?sx If not , by how much does she estimate she has burdened other people as a result of failure to conform with the law ?sx Ms .sx Primarolo :sx I intend to apply to myself the discipline of sticking to the new clause , even if other hon .sx Members cannot do so .sx I should be happy , at another time and in a relevant debate , to discuss with the hon .sx Gentleman the invidious effects of the poll tax on my constituents and on many others who are unable to pay .sx Pensioners , despite an increase in their pensions , are worse off because they have lost even the small amount of relief that was available .sx Mr. Holt :sx Will the hon .sx Lady give way ?sx Ms .sx Primarolo :sx No .sx It is well known in this House that I am not frightened by the bullying of hon .sx Members on the Government Benches .sx I intend to persist with the speech on new clause 1 that I rose to make .sx